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Just read a post asking Eugen to resign from developing Mastodon and I really have to ask: what are you folks smoking?

It’s his project. It’s open source. Fork it if you want to. But what kind of mind-blowing sense of entitlement drives you to think you can tell someone they should stop working on something they’ve built?

Yeah, asking for him to resign is going to stop the project dead. No one else has the know-how or motivation to drive it at large. Even the two well-known forks have minimal developer resources.

It's still not wrong to ask him to consider uses that are different from those of, and to lobby for features that may not fit his vision for future development of the software.
I assume the monthly paychecks they are sending is why they feel entitled to ask for Eugen's resignation.
Most of us develop a resistance against the widespread f**king arrogance.
If someone really doesn’t like his work, they could work on a whole new project that interacts fine with ActivityPub. It’s not like we don’t already have a few of those.
I wonder if things like these are attempts to stifle progress. I think we're pretty susceptible to trolls and sabotage in that regard.
exactly, fork it and good luck but I'm pretty sure nobody will achieve what Mastodon did.
Mastodon already has several forks. That open letter mentions one. This account is hosted on another. It's not the same thing. Gargron is the founder of Mastodon. He's the face of the project. And the project isn't just a piece of software anymore, it's all our communities. Which are now at risk.

Tech is never "just tech". You should know better than most people. I thought you did.
Right, tech is never “just tech”, it’s political. Fully agreed. So remind me where it says you have the right to make someone else stop working on something they’re building?

If the sternly-worded letter doesn’t work, what next? Should we shackle his hands to make sure he can’t type? Do you also take a kid’s Legos away if you don’t like what they’re building? Heck, even that isn’t a good analogy because the kid probably didn’t mold and craft the Legos himself.

*still smh*
I haven’t read the letter, but a call for resignation is most definitely an act for the politics of the thing rather than the code. As such it feels disingenuous to me to simply insist someone fork the code. What are all the non coding contributors to do? Do they not get a say in the culture of mastodon just because their contribution area doesn’t have the mechanisms necessary to fork?

Is it a silly demand for an open source project? A bit. But that doesn’t make the people making the demand silly or drug users/addicts. For many people Mastodon is their first or only experience of the fediverse and/or open-source.

How do we build a community around the fediverse such that we can collectively push for changes when and where they are necessary? Does it produce a vibrant and healthy community if the only or main way to address leadership we don’t agree with is to build our own camp/software? Seems like a lot of repetition of effort to me.
This is where I draw the line.

Do I think it makes sense to design it like he did? No.

Do I care at all what happens to .social depending on how iOS app is designed? No, not my instance not my problem.


He’s the developer and he has the reigns.

If there’s a LLC or some other business model/money involved, get over it. Everyone needs to eat and if he’s developing this instead of a normal job AND keeping it open source.. that’s awesome. More power to him for that. I respect that.
for me I think it would be good to challenge and propose changes to the management structure of the software.

It's used by more than his two big instances, but I don't feel like admins like myself get any say in the direction of the software without chipping in code (and running an instance takes most of the time I might have to contribute even if it was incorporated) maybe a board or working group is needed?

But asking him to stop doing EVERYTHING seems pointless
Well, thats not exactly true. There more contributors and quite some public funding. Its not his project, its ours. But yes, a fork is needed, since this project is going nowhere useful anymore.
Cool, if it’s your project, please keep building it and thank you for your contributions.

You cannot – and neither should you be able to – stop anyone else working on it (or a fork of it).
I was in no way implying this. I am just questioning your definition of ownership here, which is just wrong and capitalistic and quite the opposite of what open source is about.
What they're smoking? Nothing good!

Also funny (not really) that they're all thinking the local timeline will be gone soon - because Eugen decided not to implement it in one - read his - iOS-App for Mastodon.

Maybe it's COVID and the lockdowns, maybe it's anything else - I'm sick of those batshit crazy (over)reactions.
Well, I agree. But I also think he should listen the giant community he created. A bit more of democracy wouldn't hurt.
…and all this shit start because Eugen reject a feature request, then delete a comment of someone getting mad at him.

He also was called "tyrant", compared to facebook and twitter ceo (sic), whereas it's those who attack him who have an authoritarian attitude.
a common story, as far as I noticed. A popular project grows "community leaders" who, while contributing pretty much nothing, start treating the founder as an oppressing dictator and campaign against him (it's usually "him"). "We don't need a BDFL" and all that stuff.
'Fork it if you want.'

I'm sure you are familiar with the retort: 'That's not practical for most people'.

And that is very true for most people on Mastodon. Even the tiny percentage who would have sufficient skills to do so would mostly not be in a financial position to maintain a fork.
Gargron can run his project any way he likes but he can't control the reactions to his unilateral decisions.

As someone said there are valid criticisms in the letter.
The Eunomia issue hasn't been fully discussed.
Right, it’s not practical for most people to fork a project. Correct.

It is also absolutely ludicrous to tell someone what they can and what they cannot work on.
Eugen has courted these people for ages. He doesn't deserve it, but he should not be surprised.
I'm really out of the loop - what's the reason people want him gone?
Link please sir
I think it's this (was wondering myself what this discussion was about)
Asking him to resign is stupid. He's not like an MP we elected or someone we pay... there you're totally right.

*Politely* asking him to reconsider is part of FOSS, though. (I know some people who haven't been polite... and that's bad.)

Forks already exist and I guess new will follow if the proposed changes not only go into a client, but also into the backend (which he sort of insinuated as something he had considered.)

But I think this topic is way overtime right now...
Any link on this? Is this all happening because of the iOS app not having a local timeline?
If so, who's forcing users to use that app? There's countless other clients for it if they'd like that feature.
but in that case, it's not his responsibility to deliver these features. Instead, if there's a big enough group of people that feel that way, they should fork the project.
since he doesn’t seem to like those timelines but a large part of his users do i think’s it’s not absurd to ask for him to deliver. He’s the one wanting mastodon to rise and gain more users. Yet he doesn’t really listen to his userbase.

Not all folks here are developers, we can’t all just fork. And maintain the new software. He has the skills, the funds, and the human ressources.
oh and btw i like how he says that public timelines are features for techy people and yet forgets that “decentralized-platform” (which is his main argument for mastodon) also is a feature for techy people

But that’s another topic
I don’t have a problem with any of what you’ve articulated. However, raising the points you just did a world and a half removed from saying that someone who has built something should stop working on it because you don’t like how he’s building it. Which is what the open letter I read was saying.
I don't feel like he has to *resign* but should seriously change his attitude...

I've seen so much times of him "I don't like this feature, it won't be there", even if it doesn't cost him much effort to add beyond a review.
Do we *really* have to make 1337666 forks just because 1 guy doesn't want a particular feature?
What’s the alternative? You whip him until he implements it?
Him not being an asshat? :^)
Seriously... it takes a few moments of his time to review a PR and press "merge".
As soon as you have users who depend on you, it's no longer "your project" alone. Continuing to ignore them and do user-hostile things makes him a tyrant.

If you turn Better into an ad farm, people aren't going to just say "oh well that's Aral's right" and keep using it.
And no one is forcing anyone to use anything.

It’s a huge leap from “you can’t force anyone to use what you make” (agreed, entirely) to “stop working on your app because I said so” (which is what the open letter demands).
People are very invested in Mastodon already. The only alternative is a lot of effort to move to new software with risks.

So asking him to stop being a tyrant is the first "do less harm" step.
It worked when they tried it with the Free Software Foundation.
Not the same thing at all.
can i ask why do you see such a profound difference pertaining to the point you made?
i did not read the open letter as i did not find it, but in general terms:
- Asking politely to the developer of a software for a feature, with data to back up your choices= GOOD
- If no attention is paid you can always fork. Seems to be a lot of people interested (worse projects have been forked)
- Asking a developer to stop the project or give it away because you don't like a feature= BAD
- This is typical troll attitude
- No offense intended
- I do love local timeline
@spla Let me be evil just for a little. How many of those haters are using android :android: ? How ever, this is a nonsense, they can fork and spin once again their hamster wheel. If someone thinks they can do it better, stop thinking and amuse us. Otherwise is just an opinion. The squall will pass. This turpitude can not disturbe the mettlesome of the creator.
hi, I have been using the amazing project that you made for free. However, the new app you just made lacks a feature, so I demand that you stop working on the project *right now* and that someone else (not me) takes over. And no, I'm not spoiled at all 🙂
That’s it in a nutshell :) *smh*
are you talking about the one at the seed site or whatever its called?
It's literally just an open letter explaining why Eugen should step down. You can't fork a community and there's no way to get people off of the instances he runs. I disagree with the letter in many respects but it's also not unfair or anything. Aside from bringing up sponsors, that's a nitpick.
its literally just "eugen should step down and here's why". I don't get why people have a problem with this.
You’re telling someone who built something that he should stop working on it. What exactly gives you the right to do so?
If these folks don't like what he's done, then why won't they just fork the darn thing and be done with it? 😉 This is the strength of #FOSS